Razbam/ED Feud

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Bones
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Razbam/ED Feud

Post by Bones »

Here are some of the posts on the Discord via Recluse:

From RAZBAM:

@hereDear Customers and Community,

You may have noticed that the latest RAZBAM announcements does not include a changelog or any updates for our products. We would like to inform you that, until further notice, all support for RAZBAM-developed aircraft modules is on hold. This suspension encompasses, but is not limited to, bug fixes and updates.

We want to reaffirm our unwavering commitment to this exceptional community, our current customers, and prospective clients. Unfortunately, due to circumstances completely beyond our control, we are temporarily unable to continue our work at this time. Our team, a group of highly skilled and professional developers, is first and foremost made up of dedicated individuals. They invest not only their expertise but also their personal dedication and sacrifice into crafting our products. For many, this work provides essential supplementary income or even constitutes their primary livelihood.

We are hopeful for a swift resolution so that we can resume our normal operations. However, until these issues are resolved, we will not be issuing any updates about our products. We ask for your understanding during this challenging period, a situation that RAZBAM Simulations did not seek and which has previously seriously affected other parties, for example Heatblur Simulations. We have been patient, perhaps too patient, waiting for a resolution from the responsible parties. Now, we find it necessary to take a stand and await a practical solution to this deadlock.

I also want to extend my heartfelt thanks to my fellow third-party developers. Their support, once aware of the relevant facts, has been overwhelming. Thank you for elevating DCS to new heights; it truly wouldn't be the remarkable experience it is without your contributions.

The suspension will remain in effect until the significant issues between Eagle Dynamics and RAZBAM Simulations LLC are resolved to our mutual satisfaction. Once these issues have been addressed, we will resume our standard practices of bug fixing, updates, and upgrades, just as we have since our inception as developers for DCS. We hope this resolution results in a more stable and optimistic future for DCS and all 3rd Party Developers.

Best regards

Ron Zambrano
CEO
RAZBAM Simulations, LLC (edited)



From ED:

@everyone
Following the message published by Ron Zambrano of Razbam Simulations, we believe that it is necessary to rectify some of the unfounded allegations and to reassure the Community that everything is being done to resolve the current situation promptly and for the benefit of all concerned.

Without entering into the details of matters that are confidential to the parties, we firmly reject the allegations that the current disagreement between Eagle Dynamics and Razbam Simulations would be as stated by Razbam “due to circumstances completely beyond our control" and that it is "a situation that Razbam Simulations did not seek".

On the contrary, the current disagreement is the result of improper actions that have been taken by Razbam Simulations, in breach of its contractual obligations towards our company and of our legally protected IP rights, and for which we are seeking a reasonable and forward-looking commercial outcome rather than entertaining legal claims.

We very much regret that Ron Zambrano has decided, without even pre-advising us, to make these disparaging public statements and, more importantly, to take the customers of the Razbam developed aircraft as leverage in the discussions with us.

Please rest assured, we are addressing the situation with the utmost attention and constructiveness.

Many thanks and kind regards,

Nick Grey
"Also, I would prefer a back seater over the extra gas any day. I would have 80 pounds of flesh to eat and a pair of glasses to start a fire." --F/A-18 Hornet pilot
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Grifter
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Re: Razbam/ED Feud

Post by Grifter »

I have been following this matter on Hoggit. The speculation is that Eagle Dynamics has not paid RazBam, and so RazBam Is now withholding services. That may be the case, that ED is going bankrupt and not paying its third party associates. Apparently, Nick Grey borrowed $10 million from ED to fund his private warplane collection. Then again, given what I know of Ron Zambrano, RazBam may have done something in violation of their agreement with ED, as ED mentions here. Regardless, this is why I no longer buy product from RazBam, and why I was so disappointed they were given the contract to create the F-15E. It is too important an aircraft to be given to a company run by a known hothead, who has treated his customers with disdain on social media. Eventually, I may very well have bought the F15E, but only after I was sure that RazBam had basically completed it. Now, it may be that the jet is never finished; indeed, it may be DCS is going to come to an end. All I know, is that RazBam is run by buffoon and ED is run by disingenuous people with their own agendas, and none of that is good for the customer fan base . We’re just going to have to see where this goes.
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Xpendable
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Re: Razbam/ED Feud

Post by Xpendable »

I have been following this as well. I know a couple of the Razbam guys. One of them is a secret member of my OpenHarrier open source cockpit community that I started over 2 years ago. Hopefully it gets resolved. My biggest fear is they discontinue support of the Harrier and it stops being compatible with the latest version of DCS. That is a very real possibility.
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PanzerMeyer
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Re: Razbam/ED Feud

Post by PanzerMeyer »

I just want this entire overall situation to be resolved quickly because if ED is indeed having financial problems and ends up going out of business, i can guarantee you that no other developer will step in to fill the void. The entire modern jet sim PC market will consist of modders updating a 26 year old flight sim (Falcon 4).
I have learned from experience that a modicum of snuff can be most efficacious - Baron Munchausen
Xpendable
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Re: Razbam/ED Feud

Post by Xpendable »

UPDATE: This is just MY update/take on the situation -- there has not been any official update from ED. According to Razbam employees / contractors, ED cut off all communications with Razbam some time ago, and they refuse to answer any form of communication. Razbam has tried and tried to reach out to ED, but ED won't even respond. Also, apparently Razbam was never paid for the F-15 strike eagle. ED had been witholding all money for more than a year on ALL Razbam products if I understand correctly, and has not been paying Razbam for any money earned on any of their modules since then.

I know ED claims that Razbam violated the terms of their agreement, but Razbam believes that is untrue and is a scapegoat for what really might be happening. We don't know for sure, but there is some speculation that ED has been using the Razbam funds to cover expenses because the owner, Nick, has been siphoning off large amounts of money to fund his personal warbird collection. Or so the speculation goes. There is a theory that ED is cash strapped because of the money Nick has been pillaging. I don't know how true that is, but that's the rumor that has been circulating for some time now.

Since ED went dark very suddenly and Razbam had not been paid in a long, long time, they felt the only thing they could do at that point was to stop all work because ED is just taking their money at this point, so why should they continue working on the modules? That's according to the guys on Razbam's side. I know several Razbam contractors were very frustrated over the past year because they had been working on the F-15 and never got paid for any of their work because Razbam never got paid.

I'm not trying to stir the pot, but it's sort of looking unlikely that the issue between ED and Razbam is going to be resolved. It's also been noted that the sudden flurry of recent early releases of highly unfinished (Heatblur's F-4 being the exception) products is an indication that ED has been running out of money. Buying of Razbam products has certainly slowed because people are hesitant to buy a product that is no longer being supported and may stop working in the future....

For those of you who don't know... all modules eventually require updates to keep them working or things that used to work start breaking or the module itself will eventually stop working. I think I read that this contributed to what happened to the Hawk. The engine kept evolving and ED kept breaking things, requiring the dev team to keep having to fix the Hawk over and over again, and eventually the team got burned out and was not earning any new money because hardly anybody was buying it.

We will see what happens. I've sort of paused working on my Harrier cockpit for the moment, and honestly don't know what to do. There's hope that it'll get resolved, but it doesn't seem like ED has any intention of coming back to the table. They seem to be okay with Razbam no longer being a 3rd party vendor. It should be noted that ED will not be able to maintain those modules as they don't have the source code.
Hammer
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Re: Razbam/ED Feud

Post by Hammer »

just dropping in since i saw this in my daily update. this is quite unfortunate, too bad we will probably never know the truth. maybe it is time to look at Star Citizen as a group? I know to me this is quite disappointing as I feel I have spent a LOT of money on this sim (and some of you know I am very cheap!), but I know some of you have spent WAY more.

maybe they will get this into arbitration (should be way better than a lawsuit), but that will still take months at least to figure things out. then there will be the catch up needed on the neglected modules. IF anything comes of it.

bummer guys.
Helmut
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PanzerMeyer
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Re: Razbam/ED Feud

Post by PanzerMeyer »

I'm willing to do Star Citizen as a group. Count me in.
I have learned from experience that a modicum of snuff can be most efficacious - Baron Munchausen
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Grifter
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Re: Razbam/ED Feud

Post by Grifter »

The fallout with RB is certainly a blow to ED's brand and detrimental to DCS World; RB contributes several modules to the sim. As I've said before, in my opinion, RB should never have been entrusted to create such important modules. The F-15E and Harrier are not the VEAO Hawk, after all.

Even so, DCS may weather this latest crisis because the fan base, for all our complaining, is committed to "flying" a fairly authentic simulation. But, on the other hand, we all know that the DCS World environment and modules are unfinished or broken in many respects. Given the sim's history, it's reasonable to believe that it will be several more decades before the many problems in DCS are resolved. The problems with DCS are steeped in the company's flawed business model and an antiquated base code. At this point, they probably should've started over. I know many of you believe that's unrealistic, but I still firmly believe that is what is required to fix the problems inherent in the sim. Suffice it to say that the sim will likely never be entirely what we want it to be. All of which to say, I'm uncertain, but I think DCS will continue to thrive if only for the fact that it does not have a direct competitor in the market place.

So long as we're flying ED or Heatblur modules, I don't see a real reason to stop flying the sim at this point except if the group is bored and want to change to something else. Everything gets tiresome after awhile, and I can appreciate how flying military aviation, especially flying them in a realistic fashion, can grow old. If it is the group's will to change to something new, I'm happy to take a break from DCS. I'm sure it will be there when we want to circle back around to it. By then, perhaps, this whole debacle will be resolved.

If we are going to switch sims, I'm all for adopting a space flight sim. I think it would be a lot of fun. However, I'm skeptical of the SC product. It strikes me as very much in the vein of ED's business model, and I've heard/read a lot of bad reviews about the developers progress. Maybe I'm wrong, I have not followed it very closely. The last time I played it was several years ago. If it were up to me, I would prefer to play a more "finished" product. I own a copy of Elite Dangerous. I know some of you have already invested a fair amount of time in this sim, and could serve as SME's. Anyone interested in that over SC?
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Bones
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Re: Razbam/ED Feud

Post by Bones »

"Also, I would prefer a back seater over the extra gas any day. I would have 80 pounds of flesh to eat and a pair of glasses to start a fire." --F/A-18 Hornet pilot
Bones
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Re: Razbam/ED Feud

Post by Bones »

But also this!

"Also, I would prefer a back seater over the extra gas any day. I would have 80 pounds of flesh to eat and a pair of glasses to start a fire." --F/A-18 Hornet pilot
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Grifter
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Re: Razbam/ED Feud

Post by Grifter »

I wholeheartedly disagree with the YT influencer's take. It absolutely has to do with us. ED is still selling RB's modules on their site, and they don't have access to the source code to maintain them. They are offering customers refunds, but only for store credit and only after a great deal of back and forth. Most of us have dropped gobs of money into this sim both in terms of hardware and software, not to mention all the time spent learning to "fly" in it. So, as customers, the fate of these modules and the sim as a whole concerns the customer base.

I do agree that all the speculating isn't productive, but that too could've been mitigated by a competent PR department. Apparently ED doesn't have one, and so they are mismanaging yet another debacle of their own making.

My offer to shelve DCS for a while and play something else still stands. I'd be interested in Elite Dangerous because it's my understanding that it is a more finished product than SC.
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Bones
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Re: Razbam/ED Feud

Post by Bones »

I wouldn't get too hopeful about if ED goes belly up that someone will take over and things will be hunky dory either. I saw this happen back when EA had Jane's and when that went away, people thought for sure the source code would be released and someone else can take the mantle, and it never happened, at least beyond the TSH efforts. And Jane's was the most realistic and up to date sim at the time. So it doesn't mean that DCS will follow suit.

v6,
boNes
"Also, I would prefer a back seater over the extra gas any day. I would have 80 pounds of flesh to eat and a pair of glasses to start a fire." --F/A-18 Hornet pilot
Hammer
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Re: Razbam/ED Feud

Post by Hammer »

No, these people will never release their source code. They might sell it, but not release it.

I started a thread in the Other Space Combat forum for Panzer to answer some questions if he has time.
Helmut
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