DA!

[Hammer]

Everyone can have an opinion, as long as it is the same as mine! j/k! Why do you disagree to attack Iraq? You'll get no flak...

One thing I will say is that we do not have the big picture to be second guessing the administrations decision... They have access to a LOT more intel and other information that we do.

And above all, like you said, support the troops and hope for as fast an end to this phase as possible... I say phase because I think it is all part of a larger plan.

[daofcmacg]

In one simple statement: "I believe we are there for the wrong reason's"! I don't care what HE (We all know who I'm talking about) says its about the oil.

DA

[Gator]

As someone famous and important once said (forgive me for not remembering)...

"Evil has won when good people do nothing."

this has never been more true.

Personally, I think it sucks that good people have to die (Americans, British, Iraqi, all other participants) to make sure that evil can't prevail. I wish we didn't have to fight this war and the ones that will come after it, but sometimes war is put on us by bad people and they give us no choice.

[Hammer]

DA,
I think you have an excellent point, and that access to the oil (not the oil itself) is a large part of why we are there. I don't think it is the only reason, and the other reasons are the main excuses that are used to gain public support for the war. Now, these also happen to be good a viable reasons, that can not be disputed one bit:

Additional security for US citizens and interests worldwide and domestically

Bringing down a despot and his tyranical, abusive regime

Greater presence of US friendly (at least for a while) governments in an area that is becoming increasingly hostile

Easier access to the oil rich region, along with it a great boon to our economy for the cleaning up in the aftermath

[Grifter]

I agree with Steel. I'm going to be practical here and point out that, all virtuous reasons aside, having access to the oil is apparently very important to our economy. Now I've heard that it actually is not that important on the one hand and very important on the other; either way, it suits our national interests. Defending our national interest, our way of life is an important and valid reason to fight the likes of Saddam Hussein. What gives this tyrannical bastard the right to deny us the right to the oil we need to fuel our economy. Now personally, I would love to get in an F16 and carpet bomb OPEC and switch over to a more environmentally conscious fuel system, but since that is not going to happen any time soon (may all OPEC members rot in hell for all eternity), oil remains an important contributing factor to our economy and way of life. While oil alone is certainly not a good enough reason to go to war against anyone, it certainly is a bonus and I'm not going to feel guilty about it. It'll boost Iraq's and the United States' economy through mutual business interest after Saddam is rotting hell alongside many former OPEC board members.

BTW, our military has run out of bubble gum.

[Hammer]

Raptor,
I guess we can not expect anything more out of linebackers... ;)

Now remember, it is DA that started it!

[Nemisis]

HO HUM!

Just an opinion of course!

Nemisis

[Madrus]

I am so tired of this lame "all about oil" scenario. I heard it during Vietnam and Desert Storm. it was lame then and it is lame now. We get so little oil from Vietnam and from Iraq.

If we really wanted a bunch of oil so badly, we would just drill in ANWAR and not pay for it with American lives or with $75 Billion of our money to get it.

And now I will exercise my freedom of speech: George Bush was legally elected the commander in chief of our armed forces. Our courts successfully kept election fraud from reversing an election. Those who do not support our commander in chief in a time of war are helping our enemy and prolonging this war and endangering our troops.

Our country debated this issue for months while we waited for the UN to stand up for what it resolved. Our Congress voted for supporting Bush's decision regarding this war. Debate class is now officially over. Now express your support or be quiet while this country takes care of business. Or move to France.

[daofcmacg]

I am sorry I stirred this pot of boiling mess I call a crisis in the Middle East, this conflict(you notice I didn't say war because Congress only backs Bush and you notice I don't call him President!) will leave a nation divided for as long as we have service members in a capacity of such magnitude during and after this conflict(there I go again :lol: ). Yes the people of Iraq hate Saddam, but if they want to be liberated then so be it liberate yourselves or show some signs of wanting this instead of just sitting there allowing your people your nation to be robbed and killed. I'm not sure on this tid bit but from what I understand Saddam does pay the families of the Palestinians to perform suicide bombings against Isreal and yes they are our friends so we must protect them(I'm still trying to figure that one out) and we can't forget what he did to the Kurds. So why can't any of his neighbors take up the cause. I'm sure IRAN is still a little bit pissed about the IRAQ-IRAN war outcome and Kuwait plus Saudi Arabia, they must have short and selective memories huh boys and girls.

I know I don't have the big picture about all the wrong doings and such but come on why us? Why now? and why this man leading the way? Lets face the facts people there is some personal grudge there.

OH! By the way Madrus, France will be our friends again once they need money or military support, and France does have Financial interst in IRAQ also. Remember not to long ago when the Israeli air force did that master piece of a air raid on that nuclear power plant that Iraq just built in the early eighties right guys? Well among the dead were two French Nuclear scientist who happen to be on loan to help supervise the installation of plutonium that France so graceiously sold to IRAQ. This is how I sum up the French.

FRENCH WHO!?!

Just my two cents worth guys.

DA[/b]

[Grifter]

Well, I don't think we can simplify this to a personal grudge. The President does not make these sort of decisions on his own. I don't like Bush, I don't like his politics, but I do see the need for us to be involved in this war. I believe I stated my reasons earlier in this thread. People don't revolt against him in mass because of the overwhelming intimidation or the erratic politics of the region. Nations make deals just to keep some sense of stability over there. In any case, from a purely political perspective, the French should told to piss off. We've always been there for them and they've never been there for us. But hey, I know we'll do the politically correct thing and make nice.

[Hammer]

"People don't revolt against him in mass because of the overwhelming intimidation or the erratic politics of the region."

This is why the Iraqi people do not rise up against the current regime. They are either bought off or intimidated into suppression/oppression. There are over 150 ethnicities in Iraq, and amongst those there are over 2000 different clans... It is easy to intimidate and manipulate in those circumstances.

You can also take a look at history and see that is is in fact rare for an oppressed people to actually rebel, and even rarer for them to succeed. It has most often taken an outside 'infulence' for this to happen.

[daofcmacg]

To defend the French"NOT", I seriously believe they still think we owe them our very lives dating back(yes folks you guessed it) when we were fighting for our independence. We all know that if armies could have been moved faster and more efficently then we wouldn't have stood a chance and without the French we really would have had a problem. So they have a long memory on that but a very short one when it comes to uhhhh let me see WWI & II where more of our boys lost there lives in just one of those wars than the French lost during the entire Revolutionary war campaign.

So since I am not sure on the reason's why we are over there. Will somebody please explain it to me, list out the reason's like Wilson's 14 point's theory. (LoL) :lol:

DA

[Madrus]

Good points, Orion, and I understand and share some of your views. But I did not say "love it or leave it" i said "debate is officially over." We are not debating here, we are voicing our opinions. And the antiwar protesters are voicing their opinions. The war has started and that is one thing our troops are fighting for.

But I do object to the antiwar protesters who think their noble cause compels them to interfere with other people's rights. When they block vehicular and pedestrian traffic, when they shout down other's voices, when they disturb the peace, when they push away police and strike police, when they kick our servicemen and women in uniform or spit on them, etc. - they are criminals and should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. They are not much different than the anti-abortion people who kill abortion doctors (and i am pro-life btw) - who should be convicted and thrown in prison or given the death penalty.

In addition, any antiwar protest only supports our enemy (not that Saddam cares; but I am sure he delights in hearing and seeing it on CNN) and weakens our troops morale. And this prolongs the war which I want ended as quickly as possible.

[Madrus]

DA, here are a few of the reasons for the Iraq War, in decreasing order of importance (IMHO):

1. This is an enforcement action of the cease fire agreement signed by all parties after the cessation of hostilities in 1991. Saddam attacked and invaded Kuwait, we kicked him out and followed him into Iraq. He agreed to disarm, especially of his WMD. He has not, and has repeatedly violated 17 (I think) security council resolutions. Great Britain and the USA apparently are the only countries that want to enforce this agreement.

2. The Bush administration sees Iraq as a direct and an indirect threat to the US. I think the indirect threat through Saddam's ties to al Quaeda or the willingness to supply WMD to terrorists is the most likely.

3. Oil supply stability

4. Human rights violations

5. Threat to Israel

6. Sweeps week - we need some reality entertainment :lol:

7. We need to test our weapons; not only will we improve our weapons but they will be more valuable on the world market, and that is good for business :lol:

[daofcmacg]

To remind everyone this month along the CONFLICT is costing the American public at large almost 75 billion US dollars. We can not sustain a war at that cost for very long. Pretty soon we might see the cost at a Trillion dollars. Who will pay for that, the hard working honest Joe American. Please do not see me as a anti-war nut, we need to support the troops at all cost but I see a reality that is not right for this country.

DA

[Madrus]

$75 billion dollars is about 4% of our federal budget. We spent 40% of our budget to fight WWII. $75 billion is only about 25% of our military budget. The war would have to go on for 13.3 years to cost 1 trillion dollars assuming $75 billion for one year.

Our government wastes so much money. When they audited Bill Clinton's Education department alone a couple of years ago they could not account for $250 million.

There are plenty of ways to pay for this:

1. Take $75 billion dollars worth of Iraqi Oil

2. Cut Medicaid $75 billion dollars

3. Have Hollywood raise money by doing Iraq-aid concerts.

How much does one nuked American city cost? Did FDR worry about the cost of WWII? Since when do we put a price on freedom?

GW gave us a tax cut a couple of years ago that was at least 3 times the size of this war (so far). And the Democrats said that was so small it would not have any effect on the economy.

[daofcmacg]

I looking from the stand point of this war costing about 25 billion a month. Remember Desert Storm we were looking at about 4 billion a month just for having the troops over there and the price of new technology always goes up not down.

MADRUS we can't put a price tag on freedom but I seriously doubt that this is the end of the storm but actually the calm before the storm. Its only going to get worse. Hell I won't lie to you guys I was all for this war until I realized the price tag it could bring, and I hope you guys do not believe this will be over before Bush's allotted 90 day window is up and congress has the right to step in.


Lets look at WWII versus Operation Iraqi Freedom.

1. I totally understand the need to spend 40% of the budget to win that war, Hitler presented a clear and present danger compared to Saddam but hey nothing is ever clear and present anymore right.

2. If we were to fight a two or God forbid a three front war it would all but crush us financially. We just can't do it and I'm sure other countries knows this or will get enough brains to figure it out and push us to this. Its a known fact that no American wants to loose American lives in combat but its a part of war. When you lay down with the dogs and wrestle with them you will come up with flee's, you just can't stop from getting your hands dirty. We need to face facts and say yes anytime we fight a war or conflict we stand a chance of losing atleast 40% of our troops. Our mindset needs to change to a more agreeable medium or we will bite ourselves in the ASS (Please forgive my french)in the long run.


So in conclusion yes this conflict is long overdue, yes we must show the world that our resolve on terrorism and threatening our very way of life is absolute and strong, yes we need the oil :lol: , but I think this is the wrong way of going about it.

By the way has anyone seen OSAMA today or yesterday or the day before. Seems like the Bush's don't care about him anymore. OH! don't forget we still have other Military interest around the world and that cost to Namely The 38th Parallel.

DA

[Kamikazi]

(to throw my hat into the ring)

DA, I think you're underestimating the power that we, the United States, have. You've got to remember, we're nothing like any other country in the world today. We are currently the ONLY superpower in the world. I'll agree with Madrus- 75 billion is chump change for the USA.

As for a two/three front war? Well...imagine the kinds of advanced technology our military will have in the next ten years. Guess what? We had that technology about 10 years ago. In reality, our military is at LEAST 20 years ahead of what the public knows about. We divulge information on our capabilities just enough to remain on top of the world when it comes to military power- truthfully, we're hiding ALOT of the best of our technology that we're using in battle at this very moment. I've only heard things about the technology we had 10 years ago- and with that alone, I am 100% sure that we could fight full scale wars with Iraq and North Korea, and not only WIN, but win decisively.

Have you seen the body count? I agree, American/coalition losses are unfortunate, but we've already killed thousands of Iraqi's no doubt.

As for recent news- how did the Delta/Spec Ops teams know EXACTLY what room our young female POW was kept in? How does the CIA know EXACTLY where Saddam is when the first strikes were ordered? Our human intelligence (read: spies) are unbelievably good, and extremely close to the high command.

Not only are we the most powerful nation- we're also the most informed.

Just my input!

[Softball]

On the POW that was rescued.

Not sure how accurate this is, but I heard this on the news. An Iraqi civilian that was in the hospital, had written a note in English telling where she was, what room she was in, that she was being tortured, and to come and get her out of there. That note was passed onto another Iraqi civilian who in turn gave it to an American soldier. You know the rest of the story, she was rescued. I hope the rest of our POWs come home safely.


God Bless our troops, POWs, and the Iraqi civilians. And God Bless AMERICA!

[daofcmacg]

I don't know if I want to touch this subject or not but if we don't put a leash on this dog we call Iraq, we will be seeing a death toll a week that rivals Viet Nam.

I don't want to stir anything up but I feel that this situation is not the route we (especially the military) wanted to take.

LETS WIN ONE FOR THE GIPPER

DA